Specialist schools, John Harris

Nuala McGovern: [00:00:00] Hello, Nuala here and welcome to SEND in the Spotlight.

In today's episode, we're talking about specialist schools and the proposed reforms for the SEND system in England. The government is pushing for more inclusive mainstream schools that will cater to more pupils with SEND and to reserve specialist schools for those with the most complex needs. They say they want to ensure fair admissions and better value for money, including potential fee limits for independent specialist schools.

But those proposed changes are causing concern among some parents who worry their child will be left behind. With me in the studio are two parents who say both of their children are thriving in specialist schools and colleges. John Harris is a Guardian journalist and SEND parent. Good to have you with us.

John Harris: Thank you for having me.

Nuala McGovern: Also, beside John, we've got Chamika who is a lawyer [00:01:00] and SEND mum.

Hello.

Chamika: Nice to meet you.

Nuala McGovern: Yeah, and we also have Nic Crossley who runs an academy trust of Specialist Schools and is a doctor of education. Uh, she is neurodivergent and has a child with SEND.

Nic Crossley: Hello. Good to have you with us too.

Nuala McGovern: But first, uh, joining us on the line is BBC Education reporter Vanessa Clarke. Hello, Vanessa.

Vanessa Clarke: Hello.

Nuala McGovern: So we want to get, uh, some of the background on specialist schools and what was said about them in the recently published Schools white paper SEND Reforms. So let's get into it. How many specialist schools are there and what types?

Vanessa Clarke: So I'll be honest, it's a bit of a complicated picture. So the most common are state funded or maintained special schools. So these are either run by a local authority or an academy trust. There are around a thousand schools and the number of students attending them is around 165,000. So that's definitely the biggest chunk.

Around two thirds of them are over capacity, so they're [00:02:00] incredibly busy as well. And then one of the fastest growing in the market is probably independent special schools. Now these are for profit. They have around 33,000 pupils attending them. Some are very small and have higher staff pupil ratios.

It's very hard to put an exact number on how many schools there are, but maybe more than 700. You know, 19 new providers opened in 2024 alone. And then you have a range of others who you've non maintained special schools, they're not-for-profit and are run by a charitable trust. And then you have special academies, alternative provision, and special post 16 institutions.

So the picture is wide ranging. Um, and the vision for change applies to all of these schools and the number of pupils who need a place in specialist provision like this is forecast to be around 273,000 in 2028.

Nuala McGovern: Okay. So that does give us, uh, an idea of the scale. So what is the government proposing to change about the way specialist schools operate [00:03:00] within the SEND system in England?

Vanessa Clarke: Well, I think it's fair to say that there's notably less focus on special schools than mainstream schools in the White Paper. Much to the frustration of some parents who have children in special schools and say they're an absolute lifeline. But I think the things to pick out are: the government says it's going to work with experts to review good curriculum practice in special schools, and many of these schools say they would welcome, you know, a national best practice and guidelines, and then special schools and alternative provision will also be expected to provide outreach and short term placements for some young people enrolled in mainstream settings. And then there'll obviously be these new rules, which we've heard about before, to ensure councils are paying a reasonable price for places, especially in independent special schools. You know, the government acknowledges the key role they play, but they are concerned about the expense of some of them.

Nuala McGovern: Yes. And of course, money has often been an issue that has been contentious when it comes to schools like these, there [00:04:00] have been discussions about the price cap that have got a lot of press. Can you tell us about that and also any other changes proposed for independent schools?

Vanessa Clarke: Yes, so there has been talk about this price cap. So independent special schools, they, they charge on average 62,000 pounds a year. That's versus 24,000 in the state sector, um, special school sector. So there's going to be some sort of, of banding. We're not sure what the figure on that will be yet, but the government are going to come out with that.

And then, yes, there's a few other things. The white paper talks about the admissions policy being fairer, you know, as independent special schools can make decisions over which children and young people to admit and what provision to offer, which councils have to pay for. So they want more control of that, and the Education Secretary will now have the power to refuse the expansion or the opening of a new independent special school, you know, when there's limited evidence of demand in that area. So really there'll just be more oversight, more regulation, and a [00:05:00] closer scrutiny of how much they're charging.

Nuala McGovern: Interesting. Am I right in thinking that all specialist schools will need to offer some or all of the new specialist provision packages? Uh, there's seven of them that were unveiled within the new proposed reforms, I should say, in the white paper.

Vanessa Clarke: Yeah, so they're expected to be around seven. Now the ones that are laid out in the white paper are examples of what they might look like. So the government will firm all that up later this year. So, for example, a package for students with profound and multiple learning difficulties will be perhaps made then one with physical disabilities or sensory impairments. So that's, you know, there'll be these broad areas and then specialist schools will be commissioned to provide placements for these packages. So they may offer a place for all students on a, a couple of these packages and they may or they may specialize in certain ones. So that's all to be firmed up. But the Department for Education told me they will [00:06:00] release exactly what these packages will look like later this year. So some special schools may cater to different things.

Nuala McGovern: So will a child need an SPP, specialist provision package in conjunction with an EHCP, that's an education, health, and care plan, in order to access a specialist school via the local authority?

Vanessa Clarke: So I've, I've tried to work out the order of this. That's the, is the big complication. I think that this will help us.

So initially the council will decide if a child meets the threshold for a specialist provision package and which package is best with the help of experts. Then assessing is decided. So school is decided, but the family have the right to express an alternative. They're, if they're not happy, then the school works with the family to decide what's included in the education, health and care plan, which we know is produced by the council and is a legal document. And this will be based on the specialist provision package. And then every child will also have an individual support plan, which will have [00:07:00] a day-to-day overview.

So, sorry, lots of acronyms, but it will start with the specialist provision package. Then it'll go to the EHCP and then they'll all have an individual support plan. And the idea behind all of these reforms is really that the number of children needing a specialist provision package and hence an EHCP to fall.

Nuala McGovern: That gives actually, uh, a really clear overview. Thank you so much for that, Vanessa. Where are we? We're talking about all these schools, but where are we with building new specialist schools?

Vanessa Clarke: So a few months ago, the government said that local authorities will now have a say over whether they want to go ahead and open planned specialist schools in their area or use that money to create new places within mainstream schools. So maybe within their SEND units.

Now, analysis by Schools Week has found that. 34 schools will go ahead, so their special schools on alternative provisions, they will go ahead and be built. But a further 18 have decided that actually the money will be better used in [00:08:00] mainstream schools. So they'll be able to deliver provision quicker.

Some we don't know yet really what decisions they've made. So each council very much making their own decision about what to do. Some wanting to go down the route of building new special schools, but some will be cancelled, which could be frustrating for some families who are expecting them, but the government have said they'll update everyone on the next steps and the timing of these later this year. So we'll be able to see exactly where we can see these new schools.

Nuala McGovern: Yeah. Interesting though just even to hear those particular examples of what some local authorities are deciding to do. Vanessa Clarke, thank you so much. All that information. Yes. If there's one thing the SEND System loves, it's an acronym.

We’ve another view to add to it. Well, let's learn a little bit more about my guest, John Harris. As I mentioned, Guardian newspaper columnist. He's also a campaigner and author. He's the dad of a 19-year-old son who's autistic, who has a learning disability, and the subject of a memoir, Maybe I'm Amazed, [00:09:00] about autism and music and the SEND system.

I just love the idea of this John, getting into like Amy Winehouse Kraftwerk, the Beatles, to tell your story.

John Harris: Yeah. And then it goes into lots of acronyms.

Nuala McGovern: I mean, where are we without them? Uh, Chamika, to learn a little bit more about you, you're a lawyer, your mom, to a 10-year-old daughter who's quadriplegic has cerebral palsy, is nonverbal and a wheelchair user but planning to become a famous author as well, I should add.

Chamika: Absolutely. Absolutely. She's got big, big plans and ambitions.

Nuala McGovern: And why not? Exactly. And we'll learn more about her, but let me turn to you, John. So you're the parent of a child with SEND. Did you always want to send him to a specialist school?

John Harris: No, at first, quite rightly, we were really, really driven to make sure James went to a mainstream school as a principle, I still really believe in that word, inclusion, not just for special needs kids. I think inclusion is of benefit to non-disabled, neurotypical, [00:10:00] non-special needs kids. 'cause it's a great way of learning about human difference. I don't think we heard enough about that actually, when the white paper was launched.

Nuala McGovern: Really? Oh, interesting.

John Harris: Yeah, it's really important and James' autism's quite intense, and as you said, he's got learning disabilities, so he needed a lot of support, one-to-one help. You know, it was right that he was there. So he stayed in mainstream until he was 13, 14. But we reached a point when we decided, which was hard, that it was best for him that he went to a specialist school.

As a consequence of that change, you know, I've learned lots of things about, yeah, specialist education and so on, and I guess that real, sort of full on belief that mainstream inclusion should always be the, the default option I'm not sure I believe that anymore just because my son's had a different experience and we visited a couple of mainstream schools who's, um, special needs provision was pretty good.

And there was one of 'em I vividly remember that we went to. And there was, and a kind of autism or special needs support hub and it was an outbuilding and there were one or two kids in it. And I thought, my belief in sort [00:11:00] of mainstream inclusion gets the better of me. James's experience here would be pretty lonely and isolated.

Nuala McGovern: It's so interesting that word inclusion when you talk about a building that's away.

John Harris: Yeah,

Nuala McGovern: that's kind of the opposite. It's excluded from…

John Harris: That was kind of the clincher and emotionally I felt a bit sort of reluctant and weird. But that's my problem. You know, that was actually looking back, that was a matter of prejudice and stigma, and I was wrong.

Nuala McGovern: So, John, tell me what difference, uh, a specialist school made for your son.

John Harris: So right down at the architecture, James' specialist school was profoundly autism friendly. There were no kind of right angles or sharp edges. All the walls were curved. You know, they didn't put posters on the walls. It was to make it a really calming environment. You're nodding. I mean, this is all quite standard stuff, but I thought it was sort of miraculous and it was the ultimate safe space because it was less crowded. And dedicated autism provision and expertise sort of ran through everything. So it made him freer. And then the other thing that happened when he was there, which will probably move me to [00:12:00] tears if I talk about it, was he made his first friend on his level. He then came around the house to play music with James. This guy played the keyboards and James plays the bass and piano and stuff. So, and I played the guitar and I was playing music with him. And I said to this guy at the same school, what songs do you wanna play now? And he said Once Bitten Twice Shy, which is this completely obscure 1970s single by Ian Hunter, the, the former singer with the British rock band Mott the Hoople. And this what, there's another one of these kids who knows about this, right? And that's 'cause James had taught him the song in school and then he came around our house and played it. It was just beautiful.

Nuala McGovern: Let me turn to you. Chamika, your daughter, I understand, uses a lot of specialist technology to learn and also to move around. Tell us a little bit about what her school provides to assist with her learning.

Chamika: So my daughter has a cerebral palsy and she is quadriplegic. So she doesn't have a lot of arm use of her arms and legs, and the muscle weakness that affects her, that affects her [00:13:00] body, affects her mouth as well so she can't speak. So she's nonverbal, but in all other ways, she's a bright and bubbly 10-year-old. And because she's in a wheelchair and because she needs to have assistance to communicate, her specialist setting has been absolutely transformative for her in being be able to access her education and be able to interact with her friends. And have independence at school.

So she drives around in a head controlled power chair, and so she kind of leans one way or the other way to control it and she has autonomy at school. It's amazing. It's a, it's a purpose-built school with wide corridors for wheelchairs. So she and her friends, you know, drive off to their lessons together, some of them walking, some of them in wheelchairs. And she feels normal and she feels with her peers, comfortable with her peers. And that's an amazing thing that I did not appreciate before I had a disabled child. I think like you, John, I think it was very much of the case before I had a disabled child I was very keen on inclusion and put everyone together and the, you know, the disabled children will be able to benefit from the [00:14:00] curriculum and the non-disabled children will benefit from being with disabled children. It's really seeing them and seeing, knowing them as a person rather than just a disability. But then you have a child with profound physical disabilities and profound learning disabilities and you just want them to be comfortable and happy at school…

Nuala McGovern: And to thrive…

Chamika: And to thrive and to feel normal and to feel welcome and included. And that's such a amazing thing that special schools do in this country really well. And I don't think that's recognized enough, to be honest, because everyone's talking about inclusion. Do you wanna see a model for inclusion? Go into a special school.

Nuala McGovern: And we mentioned, uh, that she would like to become a famous author. And this is important to talk about because of the way she's learning and what she is able to achieve. Would you like to tell us a little bit?

Chamika: Absolutely. So she uses something called an eye gaze, which is basically a device that tracks her eye patterns so she can select words on a screen because she can't use her hands and she can't use her voice. She can select words on a screen using her eyes, dwelling on the symbol on the screen, [00:15:00] and it will select them and then speak them for her. So she has a communication aid and because in this school they have a communication aid specialist, a whole team of people that can use these eye gazes, teach them how to use them, fix them when they're broken, add words on, take words away, increase the number of kind of choices you have. I think in human, in normal interactions, we only really use about 200 words, actually.

Nuala McGovern: Oh, really?

Chamika: Interestingly. Yeah. Um, and so actually you can get quite a lot of those words onto this device. And she is an expert at using them because she's been using it from such a young age and now she can tell us all her thoughts and her ideas, all her creativity can come out now. She started sending me emails this year. I mean, a lot of emails, uh, but hilarious ones. And you can see her personality and her sense of humour in that.

Nuala McGovern: How wonderful is it? It's that, that you're getting to know your daughter in a whole new way.

Chamika: Absolutely. Technology is unlocking so much for her, and I've got so much confidence that in the future it's gonna unlock so much for so many other disabled people as well. But in order to use [00:16:00] that, in order to write me an email, she needs to know how to read and write. And you need specialists who can teach her that in a way that she can access that curriculum

Nuala McGovern: And have the time, I'm sure.

Chamika: Absolutely. Yeah. It's a much longer process.

Nuala McGovern: The CEO of Liberty Academy Trust, Nic Crossley is here, as I mentioned at the top. She is also the National SEND Representative for the Association of Schools and College Leaders, which is the union. Good to have you with us. So you have three special schools, Nic, uh, in Cheshire, Reading, and London. What is your understanding of how the government’s drive - as we mentioned - towards mainstream inclusion will affect a school, or one of the schools like yours?

Nic Crossley: Well, it's, it's quite a concern at the moment because it feels like schools like mine are at risk, particularly because of the nature of needs that my children have. All of my children are autistic, but they, for the, the most part, they are cognitively able. And so they are the children that historically may have been too special for [00:17:00] mainstream, but not special enough for special.

Nuala McGovern: Mm-hmm.

Nic: And it feels like we're reverting back to that sort of premise with, um, the, the reforms... My concern is, are my children complex enough for this new world where complex children will be in special schools and less complex children will be in mainstream?

Um, and particularly because if you were to come and have a look at, at my schools, you would see my children behaving and achieving well, our attendance is above national. Our suspensions are below national. Children in one of my schools achieved far better than the national average for their GCSEs and English and Maths in the last academic year. So quite often when I host people, they say, why are the children here? They should be mainstream, not recognizing that there's so much that goes on behind the scenes to ensure that they are regulated and able to access the learning in a way that suits them. It, it is really [00:18:00] conflicting and, you know, as, as with John and Chamika's saying about inclusion being so important - it is, and by nature my schools are exclusive. So it is quite a conflicting issue about what does inclusion really mean and am I contributing to that or am I disintegrating it?

Nuala McGovern: Yeah…

Nic Crossley: It feels like special schools may be phased out certainly from what we understand them as now. If more children are going to go into mainstream and mainstream are going to have more bases than the makeup of the special school as is now necessarily has to change. Do I therefore continue with the provision I've got and the educational offer, or do I have to diversify? Am I expected to accept more complex children, which is not a problem at all - however, that does have implications for recruitment, staff training, funding, the curriculum offer. So you know it, it's not so simple as just saying, yes, we're going to shift people and they'll either have an [00:19:00] ISP or an EHCP, and that will determine which place they'll be in. The lack of specificity around special schools in the paper is a concern. I mean, it's, I think it's four pages.

Nuala McGovern: Experts at Hand is a new commitment to put professionals in every secondary school 160 days a year. So that is the SALTS, the speech and language therapists, the educational psychologists, the occupational therapists, et cetera. Will specialist schools be included in that program? Do you think?

Nic Crossley: Well, it's suggesting that there is a possibility, but from what I read and, and I'm still getting to grips with it to be honest, 'cause there's quite a lot, um, but it seems to be that local authorities can commission that support from the specialist schools if they've got the specialist teachers. I think there is a misunderstanding that special schools have already got this provision available on site. I am lucky that I do have some specialists, but it there is a recruitment and retention issue.

John Harris: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Nic Crossley: And not all special schools do. [00:20:00]

Nuala McGovern: Chamika?

Chamika: We had an issue at our school where they reduced the hours, the number of hours that children could go to school because they didn't have the enough teachers, they didn't have the staff. And I was told by somebody within our school that, you know, this is what other special needs schools are doing, they've been going this way for a couple of years now, but we're having to now do this.

Nuala McGovern: So it's interesting. We didn't feel that there's a definitely kind of a pivotal point where they're at… I wanna talk about EHCPs as well. Actually, education...

John Harris: You surprise me.

Nuala McGovern: …health and care plans, um, they are changing as we hear. Do you think John, James, your son, would still qualify for one under the proposed changes?

John Harris: Probably, but there's a sort of bigger issue for me, which is that I fear what they sort of symbolize is a comprehensive, complete move away from provision being decided on the basis of the child's specific needs and profile, to use the jargon, right? So the current EHCPs, if everything goes according to plan, you call in reports, you know, and you are meant to take a very sort of granular view of the child, their needs and what provision that entails, and it's all [00:21:00] orientated around them.

Once you bring in seven pre-cooked categories that you must choose one or several of to sort of broadly fit your child, you're somewhere very, very different. And I don't like the look of that at all. I mean, I know, of course the EHCP system doesn't work in its current form: it's underfunded, councils serially miss their responsibilities and all, all the rest of it but if we're not careful, I think what we're overlooking is a sort of upending of the way that the system works and the idea that you know, human beings and their sort of qualities and faculties can fit into seven pre-ordained boxes, I just don't like it. It looks really old-fashioned. Even the titles themselves of the categories look really sort of clunky in the 20th century there. I don't like the look of it at all.

Nuala McGovern: There seems to be overlap with some perhaps, but we're still waiting, as Vanessa told us.

John Harris: Yeah, I mean the government tells us a lot of the time, and certainly as advisors do, they don't like the idea of labels and that labels are old- fashioned, but there’s another seven to deal with…

Chamika: That's all the way through the white paper is, you know, it's not gonna be one size fits all. But actually I, I think this, [00:22:00] this approach to EHCPs where you know that yes, it has got some issues and actually what's being written in the EHCP setting sometimes is not being delivered. And that is obviously a problem, but you don't need this sledgehammer to crack a nut, you know, this is something that already provides a bespoke needs-based program for a child. And to move away from a kind of child-centred, needs-based approach to a resource-based approach.

John Harris: Exactly.

Nic Crossley: Yeah.

Chamika: Is I think, I think that's a real step back actually for kids

Nuala McGovern: and with your daughter in the new system?

Chamika: I think in the new system, she has profound physical disabilities, profound learning disabilities because of those, because of that, and so she would fit into a few different categories, I think within the new seven categories that they've laid out. I don't think those categories are intended to be static. It's clear from that document to be fair, but they're talking about convening a panel of experts to decide on those categories, you need to look at the child to decide what the need is. I think she's going to either fall into many categories and I, what I'm interested in is how is that linked to funding, 'cause funding is key.

John Harris: I mean it's the, it's sort of bureaucratic thinking straight away. When [00:23:00] I saw that this was being proposed, it took me back to when we were looking at prospective middle schools for my son and we went to a local middle school and before they'd even said, hello, tell us about James they said, which local authority funding band is he in? Yeah, that was the first question. And I was like, whoa, how about he really likes playing music and he's really good at spelling and these are his sensory difficulties or whatever, straight to the category. The funding,

Nuala McGovern: they're kind of black and white and I'm wondering,

John Harris: it's cold.

Nuala McGovern: I'm wondering with you, Nic, because as a provider on these draft specialist provision packages. Your thoughts briefly?

Nic Crossley: Well, I'd sort of reiterate what John has been saying around the additional labels. So we've got five new areas of development, seven packages of support, and potentially three groups of children that need to fit into those. So it doesn't feel like it's moving away from that diagnostic intent that they want to move away from. I'm concerned around EHCPs and the practicality of it for SENCOs - [00:24:00] increasing the workload, increasing the workload for all staff if they're going to now have ISPs plus EHCPs.

Nuala McGovern: They're the coordinators.

Nic Crossley: Yeah.

Nuala McGovern: People that are kind of at the heart of a lot of these implementations. You are listening to SEND in the spotlight. We're discussing where the new SEND reforms in England will leave specialist schools, uh, with me are SEND parents John Harris and also Chamika and Specialist School Trust leader Nicola Crossley.

Now I wanna get to some of your emails. I wanna thank you first for sending them. We do read every single one and they add so much to our understanding off the SEND system. Here's one from Sophie. She said, in regards to the white paper, “I'm really concerned about the responsibility that will be given to individual schools. How will consistency be insured? How will it be staffed and funded? How will staff be adequately trained? Our experience is that lack of staffing, training, and funding meant that our daughter's needs could not be met in a mainstream secondary school”… [00:25:00]

And another from Anonymous who says, “I've worked as a teaching assistant in a SEND department in a mainstream secondary school for eight plus years. The school is a behaviour hub, Ofsted outstanding and has a higher than average intake of disadvantaged students. I almost wrote you an essay describing my perspective, but after much deliberation, I would rather tell you clearly what two things would make the most difference to SEND students: More teaching assistants, less science.”

John, you're having a chuckle at that one.

John Harris: Yeah, I mean that last email speaks volumes. I mean, teaching assistants are so central to all this. As we all know, they're still paid a pittance. Most schools have constant crises of recruitment and retention, and there's surprisingly little in the white paper about TAs.

Nuala McGovern: Let's talk about funding as we talk about specialist schools and the new SEND reforms, because we've heard so much about money, a lot of the debates, a lot of the contentious issues, uh, centre around it. We heard, uh, our education reporter, Vanessa, talk [00:26:00] about the government's idea of a price cap. Still not solidified at what number, so the schools don't make profits from taxpayers money. And I suppose a central question could be, how much is too much Nic, for the taxpayer to spend on a specialist school place?

Nic Crossley: Yeah, no. So I completely understand the issue with excessive funding, and I do fundamentally disagree with those independent settings who are charging those six figure fees. I think that is too much. But I think it also speaks to a sufficiency issue. So the reason why they are able to charge these fees is because of the demand and the independent special schools are providing places because of a lack of sufficiency locally.

And I think that within the white paper and the SEND reforms itself as well, though, there is a glaring omission of the actual cost to special schools in terms of place funding at the moment, there's no acknowledgement of the 10,000 pounds place funding, which is given to special schools. And what is happening [00:27:00] is that the, the unintended consequence is that special schools are requesting top-up funding to meet the needs of the children. Because that 10,000 pound has not shifted since 2013, and that in itself, I would say, has driven up the ability of independent special schools to drive up costs because that place funding hasn't shifted in the last 10 to 15 years. Um. If there's going to be a cap on independent special schools, I would imagine there'll have to be a banding and cap on state schools, because at the moment, as we've discussed already, there is a difference determined by the locality, the local authority banding. So we're going to have to do something to standardize, streamline those as well.

Nuala McGovern: I suppose what they're talking about is 24k for a state school, 62... And these are average figures for an independent specialist school. Would you, if there were a price cap, we dunno what the number would be, have to lower the overall fees that you charge?

Nic Crossley: It [00:28:00] depends on what those costs are. So, um, because we're state funded, we don't charge, we're commissioned for places, but the cost of the provision, depending on the individual child's needs, can be anything from 30 to 40,000 pounds. I have to be honest, that is what it costs, and that's because I've got in-house therapeutic support. We have a bespoke curriculum. Every child has a one-to-one device to enable that assistive technology. We have enrichment opportunities that mirror and even exceed that which they could achieve in a mainstream provision. And so quality education does cost. I am trying to reduce the overheads, but I don't want to water down the provision because I think that what the provision I offer is actually fantastic for our children. They achieve well, they thrive.

Chamika: I mean, I think the elephant in the room is that these children are more expensive to educate. In terms of my daughter's school, they have had NHS funding and basically the NHS input reduced over the years, and that's really impacted the school 'cause we've got [00:29:00] really medically complex children with, with, you know, vents and trachs and they need suction. Those children are expensive to educate. So really it's a really expensive thing, but it's really important we do that because these are people that we want in our society: they're tenacious, you know, creative people that are going to give things to society when they grow up, but only if we put the work in now, if we are just gonna view them as people that are gonna be burdens on society later - Absolutely - Then, then there's this attitude of, well, do we really need to spend this much money on them? We do. We really do.

Nuala McGovern: Let me turn to another aspect, John. Are specialist schools cash cows for private investors?

John Harris: Some of them have turned out to be that. Yes, and when you read accounts of those schools and colleges that charge six figure sums, there is something eye watering about that, particularly when you find out that some of them are owned by foreign sovereign wealth funds and all that. Of course, there's a reason why they are where they are, which is that when the coalition government was in power, sort of 2012 onwards, there was an [00:30:00] exodus of special needs kids out of mainstream schools in its specialist provision. I think the figures are something like the number of special needs kids in mainstream fell by something like a quarter and the number in specialist schools went up by a third.

You're not, yeah. Yeah. So that, that's right. And 'cause it was a time of austerity, councils didn't build the places that were needed for those kids with that extra need, and so in desperation really, they turned to these other interests. And I understand they, you know, in the ideal world, they shouldn't be in the education system - but it's driven by demand - Yeah. You, you're gonna have to adjust quite sizably the amount of other specialist school places in order that they're not required. And I'm not sure we've talked about that enough. Not on this podcast. I mean the government, you know, um, it seems like a sort of clunky instrument to suddenly institute a price cap.

Nuala McGovern: And according to the government, more than 30% of independent special schools are backed by private equity firms. Um, I do also want to read, um, a statement from the National Association of Special Schools. NASS, they told us:

“To treat all special [00:31:00] school provision as if it's the same. It’s an attack on specialism and an attack on the children whose lives are transformed by it. Suggesting an upper figure for a price cap in the absence of any meaningful data about the real cost, price, and value of specialist provision is a reckless act of politicking.”

John Harris: That's why I use the word clunky.

Chamika: You know, private companies will always swoop in where there's a gap effectively to make, to fill in.

Nic Crossley: Of course…

Chamika: Right? So it's the same in the health centre system everywhere else. So it is the obligation. If you're gonna have a forward thinking plan, then you need to start building capacity now for, for these children.

Nic Crossley: And I don't believe that the bases are going to fulfil that capacity need because I think there's a risk of a base being seen as inclusion, but just because it's on the same site

John Harris: Oh yeah - that goes back to the lonely outbuilding.

Nic Crossley: Yeah, absolutely.

Nuala McGovern: I do want to remind everybody on all these things we've been talking about that with the white paper, it is a consultation that is running for another 10 weeks or so. So just go to the Department for [00:32:00] Education website, uh, to take part in that and give your views.

The Department for Education told us

“Our SEND reforms are ensuring children get the right support earlier in their local school without having to fight for it and are being co-designed with parents so everyone has confidence in the system that we're building. We've always been clear that special schools will continue to play an important role in the system, including for those with the most complex needs. We're building a more inclusive education system that delivers support earlier, restores financial sustainability, and ends the postcode lottery once and for all.”

But I want to move on to something that's a highlight for me every week. The moment where we put someone in the spotlight whose achievement needs to be celebrated this week it's 17-year-old Maddie from Kent. Her mum got in touch by emailing send@bbc.co.uk to tell us how proud she is of Maddie for getting her level one British Sign language qualification.

clip:

Maddie: Hi, I'm Maddie.

Marie: Hi, [00:33:00] I'm Marie, Maddie's mum. So how old are you, Maddy?

Maddie: 17.

Marie: And you've got Cerebral Palsy, ADHD, autism and a Moderate Learning Disability, right?

Maddie: Yes.

Marie: So Maddie you got into BSL and learning British Sign Language 'cause a family friend is a sign language interpreter. And you did an online activity in lockdown with one of the local charities, didn't you?

Maddie: Yes.

Marie: What did you learn?

Maddie: Moana.

Marie: So you learn to sign the song, Moana?

Maddie: Yeah.

Marie: Cool. Hey, so then you, me and your big sister did a course, just a basic one online, didn't we?

Maddie: Yeah.

Marie: Where we learn some more words. It was good, wasn't it? Good fun.

Maddie: Yeah.

Marie: And you got really interested in that.

Maddie: Yeah.

Marie: And then you started learning songs on your own, didn't you?

Maddie: Yes.

Marie: What was the first song you learned?

Maddie: True Colours.

Marie: Who sings that?

Maddie: Cyndi Lauper.

Marie: And then [00:34:00] we went to see her not long ago, didn't we?

Maddie: Yes.

Marie: And saw her sing it. And you were signing along, weren't you?

Maddie: Yeah.

Marie: So then we suggested doing a BSL level one course, didn't we?

Maddie: Yeah.

Marie: But you had to wait till you were 16 to do that. And then when you started, did you enjoy it?

Maddie: Yes.

Marie: How often did you have to go?

Maddie: Um, every Thursday.

Marie: And was it hard?

Maddie: No.

Marie: It wasn't hard.

Maddie: No.

Marie: Is that 'cause you were really good at it and you're confident? 'Cause you'd learned lots of the signs online already, hadn't you?

Maddie: Yeah.

Marie: And how did you feel about it when you found out that you passed?

Maddie: Oh my gosh. Uh, I was so I happy.

Marie: And do you want to do more courses?

Maddie: Yes.

Marie: And why do you want to do that?

Maddie: Help people.

Marie: And what's your dream job? You'd like to use it, wouldn't you?

Maddie: Yes.

Marie: Signing songs.

Maddie: Concerts.

Marie: That'll be [00:35:00] amazing.

Maddie's attended an independent special needs school since year six and is now in year thirteen and formal qualifications are not something that have been on the radar for her, so it's incredible that she's been able to develop this interest and this aptitude she has for this skill into a formal qualification. And in time we hope to be able to work with Signature to develop adaptions for their level two and level three assessments of their courses so she can move on to those as it's her dream to work at concerts and interpret songs. And this might be one of the very few opportunities she has to access voluntary or paid work in the future. So it's super important for her to be able to develop this further. We're really, really grateful, the Bexley Deaf Centre were amazing in supporting Maddie through her Level One course. The tutor was so supportive and the other students made the course really, really accessible and inclusive for her. They were really understanding of all her additional needs.

And doing this course has been hugely significant for her development. [00:36:00] It's helped her self-confidence and self-esteem, and she really loves being able to do something that others can't do and having a skill that helps other people.

Marie: So do you like being able to sign when you meet people who use BSL? When we're out and about?

Maddie: Yes.

Marie: It's nice, isn't it?

Maddie: Yes.

Marie: To help them and communicate with people.

Maddie: Yeah.

Maire: Thanks for listening and hopefully Maddy's achievement might inspire others to develop a talent or an interest that they have too, or even gain a qualification like Maddie has and maybe try doing BSL Level One 'cause the more people who learn it, the more inclusive our community becomes, hey Mads?

Maddie: Yep. Bye.

Nuala McGovern: Another creative young person along as we were hearing John's son and Chamika's daughter as well. Really lovely. Thanks so much for sending that. Um, this is the last in the series of SEND in the spotlight.

John Harris: Nooo

Nuala McGovern: Yes, John. That's the correct, uh, response.

John Harris: I really mean it.

Nuala McGovern: Uh, I really want to thank all the amazing SEND parents who have taken part, the families who [00:37:00] have featured in our In The Spotlight and to you for listening. If you have missed any previous episodes, just go to BBC Sounds to catch up. They're all there. And if you enjoyed listening please do share it with others.

SEND in the Spotlight is hosted by me, Nuala McGovern, the producer is Sarah Crawley with Carolyn Atkinson, digital production by Olivia Bolton and Mahima Abedin. And the Executive Editor is Karen Dalziel. But for now, from all of us here, it's:

ALL: Bye. Goodbye.