From Napoleon’s marshals to Trump’s civil servants

What happens when the relationship between leaders and those entrusted to implement policy breaks down? On Radio 4's weekly discussion programme, Adam Rutherford is joined by three guests to explore power, loyalty and the often unseen people who make complex systems work.

The bestselling writer Michael Lewis discusses Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State, his account of the civil servants who found themselves resisting attempts by the Trump administration to dismantle parts of the American state. He asks what happens when public service is devalued, and why we rarely notice the institutions around us until they are threatened.

Jill Rutter, Senior Fellow at the Institute for Government reflects on the relationship between politicians and the civil service. Drawing on her experience in government, from HM Treasury and No.10 to DEFRA, she examines why civil servants have increasingly been characterised by some politicians as ‘the blob’, and what that tension reveals about the challenges of governing a modern state.

Historian Andrew Roberts discusses Napoleon and His Marshals, about the men who helped build, sustain and ultimately undermine Napoleon's empire. Roberts argues that Napoleon's downfall owed as much to his troubled relationships with his closest lieutenants as it did to military defeat, offering a revealing study of leadership, rivalry and betrayal.

Producer: Katy Hickman